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Ronnie-O 139306

Cosette vs. Eponine

Who do you like most? I like Eponine because.....I'm alot like her! Very Happy
The Very Angry Woman

broadwaybelle22

You mean you live in the streets of Paris with hideous parents, a brother on the streets, and are slightly insane?

Or do you mean that "there's like this guy and he totally doesn't even know I exist."

I'm guessing my second option, but please correct me if I'm wrong.
Ronnie-O 139306

The 2nd one. Also I have a rough voice when I sing.
Salome

Cosette..eponine is annoying and whiny.
The Very Angry Woman

broadwaybelle22 wrote:
You mean you live in the streets of Paris with hideous parents, a brother on the streets, and are slightly insane?

Or do you mean that "there's like this guy and he totally doesn't even know I exist."

I'm guessing my second option, but please correct me if I'm wrong.


I would love for it to be the first one, for once.
Cloudy This Morning

The Very Angry Woman wrote:
I would love for it to be the first one, for once.


Bah, can you IMAGINE?

Bopper : "OMG, I'm totally like Eponine, she's the greatest!"

Exasperated rationalist : "Um, sweetie, are you homeless, dirty, lice-ridden, and missing some teeth?"

Bopper : "Well, actually..."
Quique

Which is why the character of Eponine is always portrayed very wrong, especially in SE productions - everyone thinks Eponine is just like them; normal, girly-girl, and friggen annoying.
The Very Angry Woman

Cloudy This Morning wrote:
The Very Angry Woman wrote:
I would love for it to be the first one, for once.


Bah, can you IMAGINE?


I don't have to. I've lived it.
La Carmagnole

I'm not really like book!Eponine, as my social situation is definitely more similar to Cosette's, but I still like Eponine much better. Whenever a social unjustice is concerned, I tend to side with the oppressed. Eponine definitely belongs to an oppressed class and all her life is influenced by the social structure.

I also like Eponine for how she was able to sacrifice herself. How she was able to act differently that her life experience must have taught her. I know that all the time she was not a crystal character, but no one is perfect!
JulieJordan

broadwaybelle22 wrote:
You mean you live in the streets of Paris with hideous parents, a brother on the streets, and are slightly insane?

Or do you mean that "there's like this guy and he totally doesn't even know I exist."

I'm guessing my second option, but please correct me if I'm wrong.


I doubt anyone in the first situation would have internet connection Wink

For what it's worth, I've always preferred Cosette.
The Very Angry Woman

I feel the need to post this again.

http://mhari.livejournal.com/14962.html
Etoile

The Very Angry Woman wrote:
I feel the need to post this again.

http://mhari.livejournal.com/14962.html


"[Marius] thinks she's creepy. Perhaps this is shallow of him; on the other hand, if you were being stalked by a gaunt grubby toothless chick, who likes to wander around your bedroom singing little songs and eating your three-day-old leftovers, you might be a tad unnerved, too."

That was great. Thank you for that.

I don't really have a preference between Eponine and Cosette. I just wish they would have given Cosette a solo and not Eponine because she's supposed to be one of the main characters in the book.
Colle

The Very Angry Woman wrote:


I understand the feeling, Very Angry Woman. I don't really like this debate either because there are those, on either side of this issue, who will tear down a character and insult that character's fans(though I understand some fans can be annoying).

As I have said before, I am more of an Eponine fan than a Cosette fan, but I do like Cosette and I am perfectly fine with Cosette ending up with Marius.
Mysterious Poet

I love Eponine, I love the song On My own.
Quique

I'm not going to lie, this debate really irritates me for the following reasons...

- I think we are all intelligent enough to know that when a screechy fan says that they "love Eponine and can, like, totally relate to her" they are talking about the musical Eponine, NOT the book Eponine. The musical Eponine is not supposed to be a freak, nor creepy, or insane in any way. Plus, when people say they relate to her, I'm sure they mean they relate to the feeling of unrequited love, not so much with being a dirty sewer rat with crook parents.

- We've all done it - heard a song on the radio or from a musical and immediately felt we can relate to it. It's a very selfish moment that many of us have gone through at some point in our lives. We take even the most remotely similair situation being sung about and make it about us and forget the context of it in the show. When people feel down, it's completely natural to feel uplifted and comforted by way of a song that speaks at least a little bit of what we feel. It may be very selfish of many a teeny to place themselves in Eponine's shoes (and incredibly annoying to the rest of us) but can we just tone down the resentment toward people who like "On My Own" because they feel they can relate to it? Even I, at one time, felt I could relate to it (due to having gone through an unrequited love situation myself) and I'm an adult male, lol. But you soon outgrow that and move on. They will outgrow it too and move on. It's really no big deal.

I also somewhat agree with the negative Eponine comments for the following reasons...

-Then there are the annoying "Eppie fans." These have basically ruined it for the rest of us. These are the ones that give the character too much credit. They say she sacrificed herself for love - bull. She got caught in the crossfire. She didn't mean to die, people. She probably never would've returned to the barricade had she known there was a sniper there waiting to blast her away. Rolling Eyes

I also hate the fans that love her because they think she's a cutesy, spunky girly. That is NOT how the musical Eponine was ever meant to be played. Frances Ruffelle might've had a squeaky voice but she played the character with balls. Unfortunately, the character has now evolved to a whiney modern-day brat. Thanks to many a teenie, she will be portrayed that way for years to come in many SE productions. But I don't care since I don't have to see them.

-I love the character of Eponine. I wouldn't call myself an "Eponine fan" but I appreciate what she brings to the show WHEN PLAYED RIGHT. When NOT played right, I can't care less. Sutton Foster showed how incredible and deep the character can really be. People like Jessica Snow Wilson simply ruined the character.

-The character of Cosette is so badly written, you've got to be mad to prefer her role/part to Eponine's. I think most people just say that but don't mean it. Let's face it, the book Cosette is better than book Eponine. It's better developed and more likable. But musical Eponine is far more interesting than musical Cosette. I can't tell you what to like but I have a feeling people just bullshit when they say they LOVE musical Cosette. I love her too but there's not much there to love and I get bored. Musical Eponine's story is far more interesting to me.
La Carmagnole

Quique wrote:
[color=darkblue]I

-Then there are the annoying "Eppie fans." These have basically ruined it for the rest of us. These are the ones that give the character too much credit. They say she sacrificed herself for love - bull. She got caught in the crossfire. She didn't mean to die, people. She probably never would've returned to the barricade had she known there was a sniper there waiting to blast her away. Rolling Eyes



Musical!Eponine is shot accidentally, that's true, but the book!Eponine actually saves Marius' life sacrificing herself.

Anyway, that debate makes me irritated as well, but I guess that this topic would be discussed round and round and back where it was began as long as there would be any fans of Les Miserables in the world.
Cake_in_Song

I'm a legit soprano; therefore, I would choose the role of Cosette. Who is a better person? I do not know, and I do not care.
Quique

Don't get me wrong, I meant prefer musical Cosette as a fan, not performer.

But I now realize that saying anything along those lines = buttmunch. Thinking people are mad for liking Cosette over Eponine is as bad as hating Eponine. Well, I don't hate Cosette at all, but you know what I mean. Confused
PublicFlogging

Etoile wrote:


"[Marius] thinks she's creepy. Perhaps this is shallow of him; on the other hand, if you were being stalked by a gaunt grubby toothless chick, who likes to wander around your bedroom singing little songs and eating your three-day-old leftovers, you might be a tad unnerved, too."


Really? Thats a turnoff...?
S***.

Quique wrote:
- I think we are all intelligent enough to know that when a screechy fan says that they "love Eponine and can, like, totally relate to her" they are talking about the musical Eponine, NOT the book Eponine. The musical Eponine is not supposed to be a freak, nor creepy, or insane in any way. Plus, when people say they relate to her, I'm sure they mean they relate to the feeling of unrequited love, not so much with being a dirty sewer rat with crook parents.


I admit it. I've said it. Not those exact words, but I've said it. And I don't know about everybody else, but I sure as hell was talking about book!Eponine. And I ment I can relate to her personalty, not her stituation... and well, the parents thing. I mean, when you're father randomly sits you down and gives you a talk about how to kill somebody and hide your tracks you gotta think "What are we? The Thenardiers..?"
Enough about me, though. Just kinda putting it out there that not all Eponine fans are completely stupid, worship her musical protrayal and think they are Eponine reincarnated.

Quique wrote:
-Then there are the annoying "Eppie fans." These have basically ruined it for the rest of us. These are the ones that give the character too much credit. They say she sacrificed herself for love - bull. She got caught in the crossfire. She didn't mean to die, people. She probably never would've returned to the barricade had she known there was a sniper there waiting to blast her away.

I also hate the fans that love her because they think she's a cutesy, spunky girly. That is NOT how the musical Eponine was ever meant to be played. Frances Ruffelle might've had a squeaky voice but she played the character with balls. Unfortunately, the character has now evolved to a whiney modern-day brat. Thanks to many a teenie, she will be portrayed that way for years to come in many SE productions. But I don't care since I don't have to see them.

-I love the character of Eponine. I wouldn't call myself an "Eponine fan" but I appreciate what she brings to the show WHEN PLAYED RIGHT. When NOT played right, I can't care less. Sutton Foster showed how incredible and deep the character can really be. People like Jessica Snow Wilson simply ruined the character.


Can I get an Amen? However... Eponine did in some contorted way scarifice herself for love in the book. She accutally did purpously step inbetween a gun and Marius. Except, Marius wouldn't even have been at the barricades had Eponine not tricked him into going, hoping to kill him. Um... emphasis on the contorted...

Quique wrote:
-The character of Cosette is so badly written, you've got to be mad to prefer her role/part to Eponine's. I think most people just say that but don't mean it. Let's face it, the book Cosette is better than book Eponine. It's better developed and more likable. But musical Eponine is far more interesting than musical Cosette. I can't tell you what to like but I have a feeling people just bullshit when they say they LOVE musical Cosette. I love her too but there's not much there to love and I get bored. Musical Eponine's story is far more interesting to me.


Last time I checked, Cosette was a main character. I mean, she has a volumn named after her. Eponine only has a chapter. So... why does Eponine get a solo and Cosette doesn't...? Mad
Etoile

PublicFlogging wrote:

Last time I checked, Cosette was a main character. I mean, she has a volumn named after her. Eponine only has a chapter. So... why does Eponine get a solo and Cosette doesn't...? Mad


J'ai une idée. Even though many book fans including myself would have liked to see Cosette have a solo, it could be that the makers thought it wouldn't sell as much as yet another "poor me" song. I don't know. Like they wanted to play up the love triangle because they know that's what audiences like. I think they should have kept I Saw Him Once and cut In My Life...
eponine5

Okay, I first need to state (like many others) that whenever I see this debate I always dread looking at what people have said. (And it's not only because my answer on the subject is too obvious!)
Why is it always "do you like Cosette OR Eponine?" I don't understand why it has to be one or the other, and why many Eponine and Cosette fans have made it the stereotype that if you like one you have to hate the other. You never see debates like "Marius or Grantaire", or even "Eponine or Fantine".
Of course there is the whole love triangle, but why do so many people let it completely take over the characters? They do have lives aside from their love for Marius! And also the characters have completely different reasons for people liking them!
Quique

I completely agree with you. The taking of sides is childish. I love the show for the story and the way the music so effectively tells the story and its characters inner thoughts/feelings. Far better than any of the many film adaptations.

It's not an Eponine/Cosette musical!! Rolling Eyes

There's so much more to this show than those two. I love both characters a lot but I don't love them more than the show itself.
Eponine93

This debate, which has really evolved into Musical Eponine and Cosette versus Book Eponine and Cosette has brought up a very interesting point. Sometimes in this particular Les Miz forum, it is difficult to differentiate what is about the musical characters and what is about the book characters. I would like to remind everyone the musical and the book are two different works, each masterpieces in their own right. However, we are on a musical forum, not a book forum. I think maybe people should dial the talk about the book back a little, as not everyone who likes the musical has read or enjoys the book. I'm sorry if my opinion on this issue seems to strong or is turning people away from the forums, but this is just something I feel strongly about.
Quique

Eponine93 wrote:
I would like to remind everyone the musical and the book are two different works, each masterpieces in their own right.


That's a great point. One that I've also been making for years now on these forums. I hate it when people use details in the book to justify their hatred or dislike of characters in the musical.

I don't have a problem with talking about the book but I know when I say anything here about Les Mis I'm talking about the musical. But that's just me.
mildredprice

I saw Les Mis in March and I don't want to say I hated Cosette...but she wasn't really in the musical, I thought. She had no solo or anything like that. Eponine had a solo and you got to see her personality and such, Cosette was just...there. There for the triangle.

I kinda hoped Eponine would have lived because I love Marius and Cosette wasn't really there. But after thinking about it...Eponine and Marius would not have been good because Eponine is a poor little teen who has nothing going for her.

Just thought I'd state my opinion.
The Very Angry Woman

mildredprice wrote:
I saw Les Mis in March and I don't want to say I hated Cosette...but she wasn't really in the musical, I thought. She had no solo or anything like that.


Did you dislike Enjolras because he has no solo, too?
Aimee

This debate is about Cosstte v Eponine, old though it is, people are entitiled to their opinions.
Cloudy This Morning

Ohhh, Eponine fans, why can't we all get along? Us Cosette fans bear no malice towards Eponine--in fact, I have an idea that will solve everything :

Eponine x Cosette slash!!

See??

That way, no one is fighting over Marius! And the Eponine fans will love the Cosette fans! Which means that Eponine will love Cosette! (like that)

See? Problem solved. Very Happy I just saved everyone a whole lotta grief.
The Very Angry Woman

Cloudy This Morning wrote:
Eponine x Cosette slash!!


That stuff does exist.
Cloudy This Morning

The Very Angry Woman wrote:
That stuff does exist.


I totally, totally know. Not that I've written one or anything. (cough) <_<

A retarded one. Embarassed
EponinesRain

I don't get the debate, either. Cosette and Eponine are good characters to compare based on their traits, but Eponine wouldn't be the same if she ended up with Marius! That'd be defeating one of the main narrative threads of Les Mis completely. C'mon, honestly, if Eponine got Marius she'd just be another Cosette...'cept with raggety clothes...and bad hygiene...and bad-- well, it just wouldn't be the same!! Rolling Eyes I like my poor, toothless, uncultured 'Ponine the way she is, and I have no problems with Cosette. They need to bring back "I Saw Him Once'.

EDIT: Wait a minute, for some reason I read that as Eponine fans slashing Cosette. Hah...a Cosette-Ponine slash...err...That'd be interesting?
Quique

Funny, in all my years as a rabid fan, I've never once even thought about "how it might've been had Eponine gotten Marius for herself."

Not that there's anything wrong with such daydreaming but just saying cause I know it's stuff like that that makes all those "Ponine" fans incredibly annoying to me. Twisted Evil

And no, I'm not referring to anyone in this thread. I'm generally speaking. =)
mildredprice

The Very Angry Woman wrote:
mildredprice wrote:
I saw Les Mis in March and I don't want to say I hated Cosette...but she wasn't really in the musical, I thought. She had no solo or anything like that.


Did you dislike Enjolras because he has no solo, too?


No, it's just that you didn't get to know the Cosette or Enjolras. Like Cosette...you knew she felt for Marius...but that was like it. You didn't get to know her in the musical, so you couldn't relate. Everyone says they relate to Eponine because of the fact she was in numerous scene and had a solo to show her feelings, y'know?
Sister Simplice

Some of the posts in this thread have really reminded me why I'm actually embarrassed to ever openly admit that I'm an Eponine fan myself. Sad

For the record, I like Eponine and Cosette (and Fantine...where's the Fantine love?) and character bashing and hate drives me around the bend.
Cloudy This Morning

Sister Simplice wrote:
(and Fantine...where's the Fantine love?


Seriously!

Even an Eppie-bopper can't deny that poor Fantine is in serious need of some lovin'.

And no matter what the '98 movie wants you to think, it ain't comin' from Valjean.

On another note, are the Eponine fans in love with English!Eponine, or does it extend to other languages? I love 'On My Own' and 'A Little Fall of Rain', but I love them mostly in other languages. The Spanish translation is lovely, and of course the French Eponine is the most in-character. From the small parts I can make out, the Czech version isn't bad, either.

Bahaha, that reminds me (for some reason) when someone somewhere said, "Well, as far as I could tell for Eponine and Cosette, Marius loved them both, but he went with Cosette because Eponine died."

I still think it's unfair how people treat Cosette (and her mommy). Admittedly, musical!Cosette is a bit lacking, but book!Cosette is the cutest thing EVER. *squee*

I wrote this immediatly after I awoke, so I'm not sure how much sense this makes. I'll probably come back later and go, 'eh?'
Lazarus (Adam G)

Cloudy This Morning wrote:
Sister Simplice wrote:
(and Fantine...where's the Fantine love?


Seriously!

Even an Eppie-bopper can't deny that poor Fantine is in serious need of some lovin'.

And no matter what the '98 movie wants you to think, it ain't comin' from Valjean.

On another note, are the Eponine fans in love with English!Eponine, or does it extend to other languages? I love 'On My Own' and 'A Little Fall of Rain', but I love them mostly in other languages. The Spanish translation is lovely, and of course the French Eponine is the most in-character. From the small parts I can make out, the Czech version isn't bad, either.

Bahaha, that reminds me (for some reason) when someone somewhere said, "Well, as far as I could tell for Eponine and Cosette, Marius loved them both, but he went with Cosette because Eponine died."

I still think it's unfair how people treat Cosette (and her mommy). Admittedly, musical!Cosette is a bit lacking, but book!Cosette is the cutest thing EVER. *squee*

I wrote this immediatly after I awoke, so I'm not sure how much sense this makes. I'll probably come back later and go, 'eh?'


ZOMG LEA SALONGA TOTALY PWNS EPONINEf11!!! SHES TEH BEST CUZ HER VOISE IS SO GEWD!!!
beck

i like Eponine better, only because i dont like Cosette. i mean, i dont NOT like her..she just doesnt melt my heart. see, being in the show, you get to know both the actresses portraying Cosette, and Little Cosette. So I see them as two totally different individuals. Watching Little Cosette melted my heart, but once she was grown into Cosette, she seemed like this perfect little porciln doll. i felt like "pfft, i dont fall for her act..too virginal" you know? its just not a character i completly fall for. the innocent ones. anyway, thats my opinion. Smile
Stargirl5

Ronnie-O 139306 wrote:
The 2nd one. Also I have a rough voice when I sing.


Then you mean you could PLAY her. Because I'm pretty sure EPONINE doesn't actually SING. I'm pretty sure she couldn't if she tried. The actress who PLAYS her, however, must.
Mademoiselle Lanoire

She's portrayed as singing (albeit badly) several times.
Wickedfan24601

Absolutely, Eponine. 1. She's sings one of the most famous songs from it. 2. She has the most beautiful death scene. 3. I totally relate and not just because I have a crush on my best male friend who will never feel the same way. All through elementary school, I was a spoiled child, I was the envy of all my friends. Anything I wanted. all I would have to do is ask my mom or grandma and that weekend we would go get it. Then I hit 8th grade and things started to go downhill. Now in 10th grade, I can barely afford to pay for lunch for a week at school and I only have to pay $0.40. Plus, I just feel total sympathy for her and I don't know for some reason I just hate Cosette (I know hate is a strong word, but its true. I feel hatred towards her though don't ask me why, I don't know myself)
Orestes Fasting

*grabs the popcorn*
Fantine

Wickedfan24601 wrote:
Absolutely, Eponine. 1. She's sings one of the most famous songs from it. 2. She has the most beautiful death scene. 3. I totally relate and not just because I have a crush on my best male friend who will never feel the same way. All through elementary school, I was a spoiled child, I was the envy of all my friends. Anything I wanted. all I would have to do is ask my mom or grandma and that weekend we would go get it. Then I hit 8th grade and things started to go downhill. Now in 10th grade, I can barely afford to pay for lunch for a week at school and I only have to pay $0.40. Plus, I just feel total sympathy for her and I don't know for some reason I just hate Cosette (I know hate is a strong word, but its true. I feel hatred towards her though don't ask me why, I don't know myself)


Do you also whore yourself to your Daddy's friends, do robbery's, are you also toothless and plain ugly, commit murders and various other crimes, are you also selfish, lead men to their deaths and behave irrational anyway?
Gargamel

And you probably hate Cosette just for being sweet, honest, devoted to her "Father"... Wink
herkind

Rolling Eyes Oh thank God someone brought up this debate again. It really hasn't been discussed enough.
You know what else is in dire need of discussion? Warlow vs. Maguire. GO.
DontDoSadnessxx

haha

well i like them both but i have to say cosette cuz i understudied her at my high school.
although she really pisses me off sometimes.
or that just could have been the girl who played her
haha
The Very Angry Woman

Wickedfan24601 wrote:
Plus, I just feel total sympathy for her and I don't know for some reason I just hate Cosette (I know hate is a strong word, but its true. I feel hatred towards her though don't ask me why, I don't know myself)


Oh lordy.
Orestes Fasting

herkind wrote:
Rolling Eyes Oh thank God someone brought up this debate again. It really hasn't been discussed enough.
You know what else is in dire need of discussion? Warlow vs. Maguire. GO.


No, no, no, what we really need is Lea vs. Frances. I don't think the subject has gotten the attention it deserves. Plus it could be related to the woefully neglected Cosette vs. Eponine debate.

(To the poster who dragged this topic up from the abyss where it rightfully belongs: unrequited love plots are a dime a dozen in fiction. Just because Eponine has the catchiest song doesn't mean she's the one you need to project yourself onto.)
Fantine

Orestes Fasting wrote:
herkind wrote:
Rolling Eyes Oh thank God someone brought up this debate again. It really hasn't been discussed enough.
You know what else is in dire need of discussion? Warlow vs. Maguire. GO.


No, no, no, what we really need is Lea vs. Frances. I don't think the subject has gotten the attention it deserves. Plus it could be related to the woefully neglected Cosette vs. Eponine debate.

(To the poster who dragged this topic up from the abyss where it rightfully belongs: unrequited love plots are a dime a dozen in fiction. Just because Eponine has the catchiest song doesn't mean she's the one you need to project yourself onto.)


Orrrr.... What about.... Which SOUNDTRACK (note the sarcasm) do you think is best?
Orestes Fasting

Or a dream cast thread! We've never had one of those!
herkind

Or everyone on this board's favorite topic ever- British Accents in Les Mis- Yea or Nay?
EponineBarker

And of course you can't forget the brutal 'who's the better Enjolras: Warlow or Maguire' debate!
dcrowley

I hate this thread... very much. Thankfully I am not alone in thinking that this is a completely stupid subject.
Quique

Ditto.
Jennifer Lynn

Many here have said that musical-Cosette really doesn't have many defining moments as a character. But the author of that same "Eponine Is Not Kewl" article wrote an article defending Cosette, citing that there were moments that showed a cool person. For example, during "In My Life", she basically demanded the truth from her father, wanting to KNOW who she was and where she came from, and asserting that she wasn't a child any longer and shouldn't be getting the run-around from Valjean. And she shows she can think on her feet when she fibs, "That was my cry you heard, Papa..."

Much more is up to the actress playing Cosette. She could, for example, deliver "I'm no longer a child and I yearn for the truth that you know..." line with real anger and force. And there could be moments, when she sees Eponine and later comes face-to-face with the Thenardiers at the wedding, where she shows apprehension, knowing only that the sight of these people provokes an uneasy reaction but not sure why. And if (as has been done in a few productions), she's onstage with Marius during "Empty Chairs at Empty Tables," this could actually give the sense that she's become a partner to Marius, one in whom he confides and counts on...even if she doesn't sing a note or say a word during the song.
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